So professor these are very.

教授，这些都很好。

Contentious issues probably with some traditional Educationalists.

可能与一些传统教育家有争议的问题。

What what problems have you run into in that regard?

在这方面你遇到了什么问题？

Well,

好

they are,

他们是，

they're very contentious.

他们很有争议。

And that's why I'm so delighted that

这就是为什么我很高兴

not only the children in purse but a lot of other people in Australia are beginning to see that.

不仅钱包里的孩子们，澳大利亚的许多其他人也开始意识到这一点。

Traditional education.

传统教育。

Doesn't so much have to be challenged or attacked,

不需要太多的挑战或攻击，

but it has to be encouraged to modify itself,

但必须鼓励它自我调整，

but that's happening in Australia now.

但这在澳大利亚正在发生。

Let me tell you some of the problems I've run into

让我告诉你我遇到的一些问题

when I became a professor at the University of Manchester.

当我成为曼彻斯特大学的教授时。

That was my first professorship.

那是我的第一个教授职位。

I got that professorship because as the evidence will show.

我获得了那个教授职位，因为证据会证明。

I had persuaded the Colonry managers.

我说服了殖民地经理。

In those days,

在那些日子里，

the coal industry was Britain's biggest and most powerful industry

煤炭工业是英国最大、最强大的工业

and I was asked by the owners of the coal industry to

煤炭行业的老板要求我

see what could be done to raise its efficiency.

看看可以做些什么来提高效率。

I said if we're going to educate the Colliery managers.

我说如果我们要教育煤矿经理。

We must get the Colliery managers themselves,

我们必须让煤矿经理自己，

To argue with each other about their problems you can't send somebody into a.

要想就他们的问题相互争论，你不能把某人送去。

Party of Colliery managers somebody who's never managed coal mine,

煤矿党管理着一个从未管理过煤矿的人，

some of them not even having been down a coal mine and get them to lecture the managers.

他们中的一些人甚至没有下过煤矿，让他们去教训经理。

But.

但是

By getting the managers together to discuss with each other's,

通过让经理们聚在一起相互讨论，

their here and their problems.

他们的这里和他们的问题。

That so improved the efficiency of the pits as the evidence will show you that

这就提高了矿坑的效率，因为证据会告诉你

I was invited to become a professor at the University of Manchester.

我被邀请成为曼彻斯特大学的教授。

Now it's one thing to say to real Colliery managers look,

现在有一件事要对真正的煤矿经理说，

get together and argue a bunch of problems with each other and you'll see the solution of them by.

聚在一起，互相讨论一大堆问题，你就会看到解决问题的办法。

Trying to build on the most precious asset which the industry has which,

试图以行业拥有的最宝贵资产为基础，

of course is the lived experience of its real managers.

当然，这是其真正管理者的真实经历。

But when I tried to introduce this same idea into a university,

但当我试图将同样的想法引入大学时，

things were very different and I was opposed by all the experts,

事情很不一样，我遭到了所有专家的反对，

the professors of sociology,

社会学教授，

the professors of Economics.

经济学教授。

Even some of the professors of what was then called management.

甚至一些当时被称为管理学的教授。

They didn't like the notion that it was the people who carried the final responsibility,

他们不喜欢人们承担最终责任的观念，

whether it's the children in the classrooms in purse or the managers in the pits or the.

不管是教室里的孩子在钱包里，还是管理员在坑里，或者是。

Surgeons in the operating theatres.

手术室的外科医生。

My argument to the professors that no,

我对教授们的论点是不，

we must get an entirely fresh way of thinking about our problems was bitterly opposed.

我们必须以全新的方式思考我们的问题，这遭到了强烈反对。

I couldn't get any support.

我得不到任何支持。

I actually had to resign my professorship at Manchester and move to a foreign country.

事实上，我不得不辞去曼彻斯特大学的教授职务，搬到国外。

And I worked for ten years in Belgium.

我在比利时工作了十年。

So there's plenty of opposition.

所以有很多反对意见。

And when I came out first with that was on.

当我第一次出来的时候，它是开着的。

Manufacturing industry the evidence for that is very clear indeed,

制造业的证据确实非常清楚，

but I did the same thing in hospitals and when I came out in showed that

但我在医院也做了同样的事情，当我出来的时候，我展示了

patients recovered more quickly when the.

患者康复更快。

Nurses were encouraged to discuss with each other what their problems were,

鼓励护士相互讨论他们的问题，

instead of listening to some or in addition to listening to some.

而不是听一些或除了听一些。

Expert on hospital Organisation.

医院组织专家。

When I showed this was true.

当我证明这是真的。

I was actually ridiculed by the professional papers getting into moral evangelism.

实际上，我被那些从事道德布道的专业报纸嘲笑了。

Moral evangelism just think of this that I was accused of that

道德福音派只是想到了我被指控的这一点

because I was saying these nurses have got values and motivation and experience.

因为我是说这些护士有价值观、动机和经验。

Which if we're professional Lecturers and teachers,

如果我们是专业讲师和教师，

we simply don't understand because we haven't gone through it as

我们只是不理解，因为我们还没有经历过

the nurses looking after a dying child have experienced,

照顾垂死孩子的护士们经历过，

and because I was touching on this.

因为我正在谈论这个。

I was accused of moral evangelism.

我被指控为道德布道。

So but things that's 2025 years ago things are changing,

因此，2025年前的事情正在发生变化，

And particularly in Australia.

尤其是在澳大利亚。

Professor it seems to me,

教授，在我看来，

you're saying that

你是这么说的

action learning is

行动学习是

it can be a process where people take charge of some of their own learning and development.

它可以是一个人们负责自己学习和发展的过程。

In many respects do some people not like to do that.

在许多方面，有些人不喜欢这样做。

Well when you take charge they take charge of everything in their immediate here and now.

好吧，当你负责时，他们现在就负责眼前的一切。

For example what if you like to read the literature,

例如，如果你喜欢阅读文学作品，

you find the Japanese got from me.

你会发现日本人是从我这里来的。

They call it the Q circle.

他们称之为Q圈。

The quality circle that was copied.

复制的质量圈。

From my early work and there's plenty of independent evidence to show that but in the quality circle

从我早期的工作来看，有大量的独立证据表明这一点，但在质量圈内

the workers in a particular part of the factory get together among themselves

工厂某一特定地区的工人聚在一起

and share their experience,

分享他们的经验，

What they are learning to control to take charge of in answer to your question.

在回答你的问题时，他们正在学习控制什么。

Is their own here and now activities

是他们自己现在的活动

they are not saying we are also taking charge of the company as a whole,

他们并不是说我们也在掌管整个公司，

and

和

we are not going to say this company

我们不会说这家公司

is now so prosperous that it must actually buy the rocky fellow centre in on Manhattan Island,

现在如此繁荣，它必须买下曼哈顿岛上的岩石中心，

which Japan has done,

日本已经做到了，

but that wasn't done by the workers at the.

但那不是工人们做的。

Who were doing action,

谁在行动，

learning.

学习

But at different levels yes.

但在不同的层面上是的。

I think in.

我在想。

I think the action learners who got together in the big Enterprises of Belgium,

我认为，在比利时大型企业聚会的行动学习者，

including her four largest banks and her biggest manufacturing companies.

包括她最大的四家银行和最大的制造公司。

They got together and said,

他们聚在一起说，

we are going to

我们要去

see what we can do to help each other and solve the terrible problems that are pressing on us.

看看我们能做些什么来互相帮助，解决迫在眉睫的可怕问题。

They were almost.

他们差一点。

I suppose one could say taking over the whole economy in a sense

我想有人可以说在某种意义上接管了整个经济

because Belgium is so dependent upon the efficiency of its manufacturing industry,

因为比利时如此依赖其制造业的效率，

That if this isn't efficient,

如果这不够有效，

the whole country isn't efficient.

整个国家都没有效率。

So in the sense.

所以在这个意义上。

The action learning of the Presidents of Belgium.

比利时总统的行动学习。

Score and more of biggest

得分及以上最高

Enterprises was in a sense dictating the whole development of the Belgian economy.

在某种意义上，企业决定着比利时经济的整体发展。

But in answering a question like yours,

但在回答像你这样的问题时，

we must be careful not to be too general to look at the particular conditions,

我们必须小心，不要过于笼统，不考虑具体情况，

whether it's.

不管是不是。

The 1010 12 workers on the floor breaking off their work for a couple of hours on a quality circle

1010名12名工人在质量圈中断工作几个小时

or whether it's the constant.

或者是常数。

Meeting of the Presidents of big Enterprises,

大企业总裁会议，

so.

所以

Professor Esmonds you've been involved in action learning for many,

埃斯蒙兹教授，你已经参与了很多行动学习，

many years and you must have seen and noted the developments that have occurred in that time.

多年来，你们一定看到并注意到了那个时期发生的发展。

Are you encouraged by the direction that it's heading at the moment?

它目前的发展方向让你感到鼓舞吗？

Oh,

哦

yes,

对

very,

非常

very.

非常

Pleases me most.

我最高兴。

There is at no time have I ever tried to set myself up as an action learning experts true.

我从来没有尝试过把自己打造成一个真正的行动学习专家。

I've been a professor of.

我曾经是的教授。

But there's no chair of action learning in any university that I'm aware of.

但据我所知，在任何一所大学里都没有行动学习讲座。

And I've never been.

我从来没有去过。

Running a consultancy or anything like that.

经营一家咨询公司或诸如此类的公司。

I've never advertised action learning and said I can be engaged.

我从来没有做过行动学习的广告，说我可以参与。

I understand there are people in the United States who are selling,

我知道在美国有人在销售，

Action,

行动

learning of a very dubious character and getting 10 thousand dollars a day for doing so.

学习一个非常可疑的角色，每天为此获得1万美元。

But I've never had anything like that quite apart from that.

但除此之外，我从未有过这样的经历。

Yes,

对

there is ai think there's a recognition all over the world that

我认为全世界都认识到

we've got to get those who actually.

我们必须找到那些真正的人。

Carry the responsibility for dealing with the here and now problems to have.

肩负起处理当下问题的责任。

Authority for tackling them and dealing with them quite apart from that of the bosses over them,

处理这些问题和处理这些问题的权力，与管理这些问题的上司完全不同，

I don't want to get into politics but in the last six months.

我不想涉足政治，但在过去的六个月里。

The news about action learning is getting around the world and since the

关于行动学习的消息正在世界各地传播

pulling down of the Berlin Wall.

拆除柏林墙。

I've had invitations from

我收到了来自的邀请

book RS wars or Leningrad to go and talk about action learning over there because.

《RS战争》或《列宁格勒》这本书让我们去那里讨论行动学习，因为。

My learning equation that I mentioned L plus Q is also you can say well.

我提到的学习方程L加Q也是可以说的。

P is bureaucracy and Q is Peristroka.

P代表官僚作风，Q代表佩里斯特罗卡。

Was what Gorbachev is saying,

戈尔巴乔夫说的是，

okay,

可以

we've organized the country.

我们组织了这个国家。

The Soviet Union from Moscow downwards for a long time.

苏联从莫斯科向下发展了很长一段时间。

Now let's get the people involved at the bottom.

现在让我们让底层的人参与进来。

This is exactly what the schoolchildren of Perth are saying about their education.

这正是珀斯的小学生们对他们的教育所说的话。

In recent times

最近几次

excuse me whenever we hear action learning we often hear it in conjunction with action research.

不好意思，每当我们听到行动学习时，我们经常会在行动研究的同时听到。

What do you understand by action research well as far as I understand action research and I

就我对行动研究的理解而言，你对行动研究有什么了解

40 years ago I used to hear it and I wrote my first paper on action,

40年前，我经常听到它，我写了第一篇关于行动的论文，

then 52 years ago.

那是52年前。

But 40 years ago when I was hearing about action research largely from MIT.

但40年前，当我主要从麻省理工学院听说行动研究时。

Massachusetts Institute of technology.

麻省理工学院。

Chap called Kurt Lewen was talking about action research he was saying.

查普打电话给库尔特·勒文，是在谈论他所说的行动研究。

If we are.

如果我们是。

Mit which I acknowledge to be the leading

我承认Mit是领先者

institution in the world or trying to understand the problems of manufacturing and so forth.

或者试图了解制造业的问题等等。

He said,

他说，

if we are going to understand what goes on.

如果我们想了解发生了什么。

In so complex a system as a vast factory making motor cars,

在一个如此复杂的系统中，如一个制造汽车的大型工厂，

It's all very well for the clever professor to be able to go to a board and draw on it.

对于这位聪明的教授来说，能够走到董事会并利用它是很好的。

All kinds of lines and dotted lines.

各种线条和虚线。

The structure of saying this is the movement of the material through here

这个说法的结构就是物质在这里的运动

we can have all that we can develop.

我们可以拥有我们所能开发的一切。

Operational research in highly logical fashions.

高度逻辑化的运筹学。

Using.

使用。

Complex mathematical analysis but we've also got to understand the human

复杂的数学分析，但我们也必须了解人类

problems

问题

and therefore we must involve

因此，我们必须参与

not only the clever people who know how to program computers and work out.

不仅是那些知道如何编程和锻炼的聪明人。

Queuing Theorems and so forth we've also got to involve the Workpeople themselves,

排队定理等等，我们还必须让工人自己参与进来，

so

所以

they started talking about action research

他们开始谈论行动研究

research which involved the activities of the human beings who weren't in any way qualified

研究涉及到那些根本不合格的人的活动

to be professors or Lecturers or research workers.

成为教授、讲师或研究人员。

But could we get some.

但是我们可以买一些吗。

Some people,

有些人，

some research workers,

一些研究人员，

a professor or a man writing his Doctoral Dissertation.

撰写博士论文的教授或男子。

Get him in there to design the project on which.

让他进去设计这个项目。

The research is going to be made

将进行研究

but then involve all kinds of people

然后涉及到各种各样的人

who neither have his qualifications nor are seeking them

既不具备资格也不寻求资格的人

to get involved in the reality of what he's doing.

参与到他所做的事情中去。

Okay that I understand to be action research.

好吧，我知道这是行动研究。

It is like action learning to some extent in that it involves all kinds of people whose

这在某种程度上就像是行动学习，因为它涉及到各种类型的人

main motivation is okay?

主要动机可以吗？

What are we up to?

我们在干什么？

Why are we doing this?

我们为什么要这样做？

How is it going to affect what we are doing?

它将如何影响我们正在做的事情？

It's that

就是这样

rather than

而不是

being interested in writing

对写作感兴趣

some 500 page Dissertation

大约500页的论文

which is then going to be examined by a lot of professors to say orders a mistake

然后，许多教授会对其进行检查，以表明命令有误

on page 200 and 64.

第200页和第64页。

So I think action learning goes for as far as possible for the total reality,

因此，我认为行动学习尽可能地符合总体现实，

whereas action research is half.

而行动研究占一半。

Academic research and half to half reality.

学术研究和半现实。